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Postby rmeesig » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:56 pm

Yoda wrote:
OK, hard feelings aside, let's look at it from a historical point of view. How many closers in Wagner's caliber have been traded from a playoff contender in the middle of a run? Let's just say the last 20 years.


Point taken. BUT - how many closers have come out and said they will most likely retire while they are still in their prime?

I really think the Phils are just looking out for the future with this move, solidifying the closer spot before the inevitable happens.

There will be plenty of teams salivating for a half year of B.Wagner...you can't deny that...this gives Philly the flexibility to move him.

No hard feelings, just don't think you're looking at the big picture.
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Postby Yoda » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:57 pm

nuggets wrote:
Yoda wrote:
mcqfesijiba wrote:
Yoda wrote:
matthew18 wrote:"Farnsworth is terrible" ????

Yes, he has been in the past, but a 2.55 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, and 31K's in 24 innings is not terrible.


Don't let the low ERA and the K fool you. He has 21 blown saves in his career. Most Cubbie fans know what I'm talking about. He does NOT have a closer mentality.
Players are capable of improvement. It's not a static world where you enter the league and leave with the same abilities. He clearly has great stuff, but he's had shaky command at times. Plus sometimes a change of scenery can do a player good. This very well could be the case with Farnsworth, we'll just have to see.



True. He's been very good the last month. But it's only a month and we've seen him pitch like this before. Believe me.



He has pitched like this before, just not as consistently (Sept. last year, may/june/sept '03, april/july/aug '01)

You could call Farnsworth the Beltre of relief pitching prospects. With that BB:K, K/9 and weaker hitting division, I have no problem believing Farnsworth has arrived, for the first half of the season anyway.

When he is on point the guy is almost unhittable. With the Cubs curse removed look what you have, a borderline dominant closer.


OK. I will take back my previous statement that he is terrible. He obviously isn't terrible right now and he has the stuff to be dominant.

The real issue at hand is what the Tigers got in return for a potential closer. Percy could go down any day and if you had a choice, would you want UUU or Farnsworth in there? I just don't think Polanco is worth as much as a quality arm in the bullpen.
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Postby wrveres » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:59 pm

Yoda wrote:
rmeesig wrote:
Yoda wrote:
Oh I will. It's just that I have NEVER seen a playoff contender trade its closer, not to mention one of the top 3 in all of baseball. But hey, it's your opinion so what do I care? Glad you're not managing the Yankees.


So you are totally disregarding that they just picked up UU, someone you just called a "proven closer" a few posts back?

Wagner is out of Philly after this year - why not get someone to replace him now, who is cheap, and proven?

Then sit back and watch the offers roll in for Wagner?

Baseball is hard, huh?




OK, hard feelings aside, let's look at it from a historical point of view. How many closers in Wagner's caliber have been traded from a playoff contender in the middle of a run? Let's just say the last 20 years.



Not that I think Wagner gets dealt, but ..
(June 24, 2004).
Dotel the current highly ranked closer was traded by Houston Astros to Oakland Athletics as part of 3-team trade in which Houston Astros sent John Buck and cash to Kansas City Royals;
Oakland Athletics sent Mike Wood and Mark Teahen to Kansas City Royals;
and Kansas City Royals sent Carlos Beltran to Houston Astros
Last edited by wrveres on Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Yoda » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:01 pm

wrveres wrote:
Yoda wrote:
rmeesig wrote:
Yoda wrote:
Oh I will. It's just that I have NEVER seen a playoff contender trade its closer, not to mention one of the top 3 in all of baseball. But hey, it's your opinion so what do I care? Glad you're not managing the Yankees.


So you are totally disregarding that they just picked up UU, someone you just called a "proven closer" a few posts back?

Wagner is out of Philly after this year - why not get someone to replace him now, who is cheap, and proven?

Then sit back and watch the offers roll in for Wagner?

Baseball is hard, huh?




OK, hard feelings aside, let's look at it from a historical point of view. How many closers in Wagner's caliber have been traded from a playoff contender in the middle of a run? Let's just say the last 20 years.



Not that I think Wagner gets dealt, but ..
(June 24, 2004).
Dotel the current highly ranked closer was traded by Houston Astros to Oakland Athletics as part of 3-team trade in which Houston Astros sent John Buck and cash to Kansas City Royals;
Oakland Athletics sentMike Wood and Mark Teahen to Kansas City Royals;
and Kansas City Royals sent Carlos Beltran to Houston Astros


Let's face it. Dotel was a 'closer' but never a very good one. Plus weren't the Stros out of the playoffs at that point?
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Postby wrveres » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:03 pm

Dotel was highly regarded at the time he was dealt..

Highly


edt:

Forgot to add, the may have been out of the race in the central, everybody was, but they were in the wild card hunt.
Last edited by wrveres on Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby rmeesig » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:07 pm

Yoda wrote:
Let's face it. Dotel was a 'closer' but never a very good one. Plus weren't the Stros out of the playoffs at that point?


They traded for a half year rental of Beltran. Why would they do that if they were out of it?
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Postby Yoda » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:13 pm

wrveres wrote:Dotel was highly regarded at the time he was dealt..

Highly


edt:

Forgot to add, the may have been out of the race in the central, everybody was, but they were in the wild card hunt.


OK. So one closer was traded. Any others?

Also, Dotel was a good reliever but he wasn't as proven or established as someone like Wagner.
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Postby ravenmad22 » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:13 pm

With the early success of pitchers with no control in closer roles this year (Turnbow and Dempster), I am not willing to discount Farnsworth based on previous history. I made that mistake with Turnbow and Dempster and got burned.
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Postby wrveres » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:18 pm

Yoda wrote:
wrveres wrote:Dotel was highly regarded at the time he was dealt..

Highly


edt:

Forgot to add, the may have been out of the race in the central, everybody was, but they were in the wild card hunt.


OK. So one closer was traded. Any others?

Also, Dotel was a good reliever but he wasn't as proven or established as someone like Wagner.


that was the first name that came to mind.
I'm sure I could find others if I dig.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that it seems foolish to trade away a solid pen when you are in the hunt, it is just not unprecedented.
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