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B. Molina may sit out 2006.

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Postby Havok1517 » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:39 am

Quote "Though some of this may be because of injury they have regressed or become stagnant in the last 2 years (the two years Z-Nobody has been there)."

The fact remains that before Zaun was there Halladay was the CY Young award winning pitcher. In the 2 years Zaun has been there Halladay has been injured/less effective. Now, I'm not blaming Zaun for that. Just stating a fact.

If you do agree with me that Molina is better than Zaun, that's fine. But the majority of logical baseball people would tend to agree that even though Zaun is cheaper...Molina would have the most positive impact on Toronto winning. Even your beloved manager doesn't trust Zaun with the team as much as he would Molina. That right there says enough to me. I like the Blue Jays, I wish them the best I just think Molina gives them the best chance to win no matter what Zaun's OBP% is. If he's a good club house leader...keep him around for that and backup. But to fight over this with Molina's fine stats and honors and Zaun's none seems dumb to me and a lot of others.
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Postby mweir145 » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:50 am

Havok1517 wrote:The fact remains that before Zaun was there Halladay was the CY Young award winning pitcher. In the 2 years Zaun has been there Halladay has been injured/less effective. Now, I'm not blaming Zaun for that. Just stating a fact.

That's basically the same as saying, since Alex Rios came up and starting playing with the Jays in 2004, Halladay has been injured more than usual. That's a fact right? Though, both things have nothing to do with each other.

If you were going to say Halladay has been less effective due to Zaun's presence catching with him, it might make sense, except for the fact it isn't true, either.
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Postby Havok1517 » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:54 am

Well, I'd say a healthy Halladay would be more effective with Molina over Zaun. I bet Molina could even get Lilly back on track.
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Postby mweir145 » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:58 am

And for the last time, nobody is argueing over Molina's "fine stats and honours". He does have an impressive repertoire, though those stats won't mean much in terms of playing time once he becomes a Jay (if he does). And as I've said numerous times before in this thread, I expect Molina to catch 90-100 games (provided he's healthy), while Zaun will catch the rest of them. Zaun's impact on the team won't be forgotten, even with Molina here, and I still feel he will be a major part of the team next season. And please remember there is no reason for me, or any other Jays fan, to give out mis-information.
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Postby mweir145 » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:01 am

Havok1517 wrote:Well, I'd say a healthy Halladay would be more effective with Molina over Zaun. I bet Molina could even get Lilly back on track.

That is just an opinion, and something we can't judge until the time actually comes.
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Postby Havok1517 » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:07 am

And by stating that if Molina signs he only starts 90-100 (I believe that's the 1st time you went all the way to 100 games btw) is an observation. It's nothing more than a hypothesis by you and few other Jay fan's opinion on the team. I just don't see it happening by the actions of your GM and the money he's planning on investing in Molina if he does sign even for Molina's bargin price of 4 mill. Course Molina could go elsewhere. Especially if you add in Molina's competitive nature.
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Postby mweir145 » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:19 am

Havok1517 wrote:And by stating that if Molina signs he only starts 90-100 (I believe that's the 1st time you went all the way to 100 games btw) is an observation. It's nothing more than a hypothesis by you and few other Jay fan's opinion on the team. I just don't see it happening by the actions of your GM and the money he's planning on investing in Molina if he does sign even for Molina's bargin price of 4 mill. Course Molina could go elsewhere. Especially if you add in Molina's competitive nature.

I've said 90-100 games several times throughout this thread, but I guess you were too busy to actually read through the entirety of those certain posts. ;-7

My observation/hypothesis does take into account Molina signing for that 4 million amount, and that's exactly the reason why I think he will play the majority of the games this year if he does happen to sign. I believe he'll catch all of the games agaisnt lefty pitchers, and he'll even in all likelyhood take some games off Zaun agaisnt righties. However, a platoon definitely seems like the way to go, though (and IMO, is the way they'll go). Especially with Molina's bad numbers agaisnt right-handed pitchers.
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Postby davidmarver » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Havok1517 wrote:Your comparing pitchers Colon (CY Young!!!), Washburn (WS Pitcher), Lackey (Dominate last year), Santana (the only comprable player to the Tor youngsters) to Halladay (wait he couldn't pitch and his numbers are down ever since Zaun took over @ C), Lilly and his 5.56 era!!!, Chacin huge margin to improve, & Towers huge margin, & Bush.

Do you understand the statistic I used to measure how much Zaun and Molina improve their team's ERA? The equation is:

(Team ERA - Catcher ERA)/Team ERA

Catcher ERA is the team's ERA when that catcher is behind the plate, as acquired by ESPN's MLB statistics page. As you can see, the individual pitchers do not matter.
It's hilarious that you think OBP% is more important than all the other offensive numbers that Molina has put up year after to year than the horrible Zaun. You failed to address any of the past defensive numbers Z-Nobody had compared to Molina. Even in his career year (2005) his numbers still weren't as good Molina's.

You want a complete career statistical analysis of the two? I don't think you'll like the results as is pertains to your argument.
<pre>
Player OBP% SLG% OPS OPS+ RC/27 GIDP SB
Molina .309 .397 .706 84 4.19 94 2
Zaun .342 .375 .717 86 4.43 52 21

Player CS% F% RF ZR PB
Molina .363 .994 6.85 .942 38
Zaun .260 .985 7.03 .909 39</pre>

Well, I think JP knows a lot more than you do and I agree with him. You think maybe that the major pitching successes of the Angels over the last few year could be because of Molina??? How since he's caught for them he's won a WS, been to the All-Star game, WON GOLD GLOVES, helped lead Colon to the CY YOUNG, help Lackey find the strikezone. How on earth could Z-horrible compete? What has Zaun done? He's been a marginal journeyman catcher for his entire career. Spending time in Bal, Fla, Hou, Tex, KC, and now Toronto. That's because he can't hit and can't field when compared to a player like Molina. He maybe more patient but he sure isn't better and when/if he gets signed Z-Crappy takes a long seat on the bench.

If Molina helped Lackey find the strikezone, how come Lackey posted a career high in BB/9 this last season? How did Molina lead Colon to the Cy Young when Colon posted a better season at the age of 27? And how, I ask you, could Molina have played a big role in any of this if he didn't even catch enough innings last season to qualify for any defensive statistic.
Molina = Winner, Zaun= Never was. Funny stuff.

Here's some actual funny stuff. The year the Angels won the World Series, Molina hit .245 with an OPS under .600. Ready for some more funny stuff? Gregg Zaun won the World Series with the Marlins in 1997.
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Postby Havok1517 » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:43 am

As a reserve catcher to Charles Johnson, yeah that is funny, lol. I think you're wrong and I believe most people think u are too. Oh well :-)
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Postby TheYanks04 » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:54 am

8 pages on Molina and Zaun.
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