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Bonds and Steroids - WOW

Postby Lofunzo » Wed May 30, 2007 1:40 am

WR.......To be clear, I removed your rants. I will continue to do so as well. Not sure what's up but, as with any issue, there are people that agree with you and some that disagree. Some people that disagree have valid reasons and some don't. Believe what you want to believe and let them do the same. Just please keep the rants out of here.
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Postby wrveres » Wed May 30, 2007 1:41 am

come on sports addict, spin your hate ..
Tell me why should Hate Barry!

I am listening, tell me what a horrible human being he is, give it to me .

tell me why I should look up to that drunk in your sig that almost killed two people, and why I should hate a baseball player, for playing baseball ...
I will listen ..
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Postby wrveres » Wed May 30, 2007 1:44 am

Lofunzo wrote:WR.......To be clear, I removed your rants. I will continue to do so as well. Not sure what's up but, as with any issue, there are people that agree with you and some that disagree. Some people that disagree have valid reasons and some don't. Believe what you want to believe and let them do the same. Just please keep the rants out of here.


They really were not that bad .. :-o

But understood.
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Postby sportsaddict » Wed May 30, 2007 2:04 am

wrveres wrote:come on sports addict, spin your hate ..
Tell me why should Hate Barry!

I am listening, tell me what a horrible human being he is, give it to me .

tell me why I should look up to that drunk in your sig that almost killed two people, and why I should hate a baseball player, for playing baseball ...
I will listen ..


My posts were deleted so I got the message, I went over to General Talk for a bit until I came back here. But I will respond.

I felt like my posts were pretty fair and not very radical like a lot of the other ones you see here. I wasn't ripping Bonds for what people usually do, you know, the "he's mean to the media, he's a cheater, etc." I simply just said I didn't think race was playing a factor. I'm not sure what there is to bash me about, I wasn't bashing Bonds, but I think as a Bonds fan you are probably just used to people coming in with the same arguments over and over again. However, I made a conscious effort to refrain from that because frankly it gets old. I am sick of debating about Bonds, but I just don't think race is at all a factor in these steroid allegations.

Edit: Also, as far as the Hancock thing goes, he acted like an idiot that night but let's not forget he lost his life. I don't at all condone his actions but he still died at a very early age and should be mourned because of that. Let's just be thankful he didn't kill anyone else.
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Postby shasty mcnasty » Wed May 30, 2007 2:09 am

Art Vandelay wrote:Why do people continue to read into Aaron's actions and assume they know his motivations despite what he has clearly stated numerous times?

It's a recurring theme with the anti-Bonds crowd: if an anonymous source is named, what he or she says is treated as gospel...as long as they are saying something negative about Bonds but if someone is willing to actually stand behind what they say (a la almost all of Bonds' former teammates and coaches, and guys like Griffey, Pujols, etc) excuses are made for why they are unwilling to say anything bad about a "known cheater." Someone like Aaron can say multiple times why he doesn't plan to be at the game, and people ignore it and come up with their own reasons. So I guess you guys all think that not only is Bonds a cheater, but Hank Aaron is a liar as well?


don't know if this was at least partially directed toward me, but if so, i brought up Aaron's name only in direct reference to another post which had referenced him...i'm not personally reading into his words/actions one way or another, although it's certainly well within the realm of possibility that a person might have myriad motivations for a choice such as Aaron's, only some of which they might share, for reasons of personal tact, or unwillingness to enter into controversy. On the other hand, perhaps his only motives are those he has mentioned. I haven't read his comments on the matter, but it wouldn't necessarily make him a liar if he gave one motivation without revealing all his cards...it might just make him prudent or polite, or any number of things.
Another of your lines of thought seems to be that the anti-Bonds crowd is guilty of biased treatment of stated fact/opinion in favor of their own beliefs....while this is almost assuredly undeniable, i'd hope you would an equal possibility of bias within the pro-Bonds crowd...unless i miss my guess, i'd say this is a phenomenon of the human condition at large, not so much something to be found on either one or the other side of this specific argument... :-?
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Postby wrveres » Wed May 30, 2007 2:37 am

do we have any sociopaths in the house?
If so here. ESPN just published you a how to manual:

Cliff notes for ya ..

How To kill Barry Bonds wrote:* look at San Francisco Giants outfielder Barry Bonds and cringe at the thought of this sullen, allegedly chemically enhanced antihero smirking his way to one of the most prestigious records in all of sports.
* do something about it.
* goal would be to almost religiously sacrifice himself on behalf of the American people to stop this record from happening,


* In 1995, a fan charged Cubs reliever Randy Myers
* a fan attacked Houston Astros right fielder Bill Spiers, leaving him bruised and bloodied
* in two separate incidents in 2002 and 2003, Chicago White Sox fans ran onto the field, attacking Kansas City Royals first base coach Tom Gamboa and umpire Laz Diaz, respectively.
* in 1974, when a fan opened a gate and walked onto the field, approaching Aaron, with something in his hand
* April 8, 1974, when Aaron circled the bases after hitting his record-breaking 715th home run and a pair of college-aged kids ran onto the field to join him

* 'Why didn't you shoot at them?' You're talking about going down in infamy. You're talking about taking one of the greatest moments in our sports history and turning it into a fiasco. (so they won't shoot)

* Bonds' MLB-assigned security liaison stands in an aisle next to the Giants' dugout. In every Bonds' at-bat .. he stands with his back to the field.
* In the Dodgers' left field bullpen, two security guards stand by, in plain clothes
* In every lower-level aisle throughout the stadium, ushers survey the crowd
* LAPD officers lead teams of bomb sniffing dogs.
* "There's a team of people, guaranteed, And the entire network is based on communication. Walkie talkies, cell phones.


* "The closer he gets," Lewis said, "the more he becomes a legitimate target."
* there are the baseball purists who want to protect the records like a bible
* So, as it pertains to Bonds, could life horrifically imitate art? Nobody knows






* Anybody with enough determination one way or another can attempt to try something,

:-t
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Postby Madison » Wed May 30, 2007 2:49 am

wrveres wrote:do we have any sociopaths in the house?
If so here. ESPN just published you a how to manual:

Cliff notes for ya ..

How To kill Barry Bonds wrote:* look at San Francisco Giants outfielder Barry Bonds and cringe at the thought of this sullen, allegedly chemically enhanced antihero smirking his way to one of the most prestigious records in all of sports.
* do something about it.
* goal would be to almost religiously sacrifice himself on behalf of the American people to stop this record from happening,


* In 1995, a fan charged Cubs reliever Randy Myers
* a fan attacked Houston Astros right fielder Bill Spiers, leaving him bruised and bloodied
* in two separate incidents in 2002 and 2003, Chicago White Sox fans ran onto the field, attacking Kansas City Royals first base coach Tom Gamboa and umpire Laz Diaz, respectively.
* in 1974, when a fan opened a gate and walked onto the field, approaching Aaron, with something in his hand
* April 8, 1974, when Aaron circled the bases after hitting his record-breaking 715th home run and a pair of college-aged kids ran onto the field to join him

* 'Why didn't you shoot at them?' You're talking about going down in infamy. You're talking about taking one of the greatest moments in our sports history and turning it into a fiasco. (so they won't shoot)

* Bonds' MLB-assigned security liaison stands in an aisle next to the Giants' dugout. In every Bonds' at-bat .. he stands with his back to the field.
* In the Dodgers' left field bullpen, two security guards stand by, in plain clothes
* In every lower-level aisle throughout the stadium, ushers survey the crowd
* LAPD officers lead teams of bomb sniffing dogs.
* "There's a team of people, guaranteed, And the entire network is based on communication. Walkie talkies, cell phones.


* "The closer he gets," Lewis said, "the more he becomes a legitimate target."
* there are the baseball purists who want to protect the records like a bible
* So, as it pertains to Bonds, could life horrifically imitate art? Nobody knows






* Anybody with enough determination one way or another can attempt to try something,

:-t


Who's spinning the media now? The quote is NOT:

do something about it


it's:

So he'd want to do something about it.


Quite a difference there, and I didn't bother to waste the time with the rest of it, as I'm sure that's not the only thing you spun. :*)
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Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Postby jnormy » Wed May 30, 2007 9:32 am

Madison wrote:Who's spinning the media now? The quote is NOT:

do something about it


it's:

So he'd want to do something about it.


Quite a difference there, and I didn't bother to waste the time with the rest of it, as I'm sure that's not the only thing you spun. :*)


Here's another quote from the story conveniently left out, concerning the stadium security "cliff" notes:

"We usually do this for high-profile games," one of the officers says. "And yes, any time Barry Bonds comes to town, it's a high-profile game."


So while the notes make it sound like all this extra security is necessary solely for Bonds' health, it's really the M.O. for any high-profile game. And here's another quote of note, left out above:

The extra security isn't unprecedented. MLB assigned security agents to Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa during their 1998 chase of Roger Maris' home run mark. They did the same for Cal Ripken Jr. as he approached Lou Gehrig's consecutive games streak in 1995.


So it's not just about Barry. Anytime a record is in jeopardy of falling, MLB tightens up security.

Oh, and that list of on-field incidents above? It was prefaced in the story with this:

"The closer he gets," Lewis said, "the more he becomes a legitimate target."

Christian End, a Xavier University expert on sport fan behavior, agrees. But End thinks the likelihood of someone running onto the field to attack Bonds is small. There have been only four similar incidents in more than a decade in baseball.


So that list, without this proper context, can easily be sensationalized to fit an agenda.

I do appreciate the inclusion of the link in the post, though. Gave us a chance to get beyond the spin in the cliff notes to the whole story. Not sure how this qualifies as a "how to" manual. It didn't exactly give a step-by-step on baseball stadium assassination proceduress or how to make a home-made bomb or anything specific like that. Nothing in this article should be news to anyone, which makes me wonder why it was worth publishing in the first place. Probably to generate controversial discussions in chat rooms and message boards... ;-7
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Postby Art Vandelay » Wed May 30, 2007 10:35 am

shasty mcnasty wrote:don't know if this was at least partially directed toward me, but if so, i brought up Aaron's name only in direct reference to another post which had referenced him...i'm not personally reading into his words/actions one way or another, although it's certainly well within the realm of possibility that a person might have myriad motivations for a choice such as Aaron's, only some of which they might share, for reasons of personal tact, or unwillingness to enter into controversy. On the other hand, perhaps his only motives are those he has mentioned. I haven't read his comments on the matter, but it wouldn't necessarily make him a liar if he gave one motivation without revealing all his cards...it might just make him prudent or polite, or any number of things.
Another of your lines of thought seems to be that the anti-Bonds crowd is guilty of biased treatment of stated fact/opinion in favor of their own beliefs....while this is almost assuredly undeniable, i'd hope you would an equal possibility of bias within the pro-Bonds crowd...unless i miss my guess, i'd say this is a phenomenon of the human condition at large, not so much something to be found on either one or the other side of this specific argument... :-?


I wasn't directing anything at you, just making a general comment. It just strikes me as odd that people always talk about Aaron's class and dignity when comparing him to Bonds, then say "but obviously he's lying about why he won't go to the game." And you are absolutely correct: it's not just the anti-Bonds crowd who are selective about which sources or stories they believe depending on the content. However, I have not noticed as many Bonds supporters give credence and accept as valid anonymous sources while ignoring named sources as vice versa.
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Postby The Cow » Wed May 30, 2007 12:40 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
shasty mcnasty wrote:don't know if this was at least partially directed toward me, but if so, i brought up Aaron's name only in direct reference to another post which had referenced him...i'm not personally reading into his words/actions one way or another, although it's certainly well within the realm of possibility that a person might have myriad motivations for a choice such as Aaron's, only some of which they might share, for reasons of personal tact, or unwillingness to enter into controversy. On the other hand, perhaps his only motives are those he has mentioned. I haven't read his comments on the matter, but it wouldn't necessarily make him a liar if he gave one motivation without revealing all his cards...it might just make him prudent or polite, or any number of things.
Another of your lines of thought seems to be that the anti-Bonds crowd is guilty of biased treatment of stated fact/opinion in favor of their own beliefs....while this is almost assuredly undeniable, i'd hope you would an equal possibility of bias within the pro-Bonds crowd...unless i miss my guess, i'd say this is a phenomenon of the human condition at large, not so much something to be found on either one or the other side of this specific argument... :-?


I wasn't directing anything at you, just making a general comment. It just strikes me as odd that people always talk about Aaron's class and dignity when comparing him to Bonds, then say "but obviously he's lying about why he won't go to the game." And you are absolutely correct: it's not just the anti-Bonds crowd who are selective about which sources or stories they believe depending on the content. However, I have not noticed as many Bonds supporters give credence and accept as valid anonymous sources while ignoring named sources as vice versa.


I cannot say whether or not Aaron or Bonds took steroids with 100% certainty. There is a whole lot more circumstantial evidence pointing towards Bonds though. I do not for a second believe that Bonds was the only high profile player taking roids. There were/are still loads of them is my guess. BUT when you bring up Bonds, Aaron and dignity well there is a huge chasm here. Bonds does not and has not ever shown a shred of dignity, he does not feel that he has to treat others with respect. At least that is how Bonds comes off. Aaron on the other hand is generally thought of a respectful person that exudes dignity. If Bonds wanted to be the media poster child he should have maybe at least thought about treating others with respect. Bonds made his bed and he is lying in it, he deserves all the lack of respect that he is getting. If Bonds were a more likeable player like say Griffey his breaking the home run record would be full of glitz and fan fare. But Bonds chose to not treat others with respect, so why should Bonds expect any respect?

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