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HoF Discussion: Craig Biggio

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Postby ThatDude » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:49 pm

tianyi86 wrote:
ThatDude wrote:Aside from being hit by pitches, where does Biggio really stand out?

Longevity alone does not equal greatness.


In that case, nolan ryan is not that great of a pitcher at all. "Only 2" 20 win seasons and reached over 300 wins "only because he played for 27 years," averaging a little less than 12 wins per year. Nolan Ryan reached 5714 k's "only because he played 27 years", which average a little more than 210ks per year.

The point is, if you think nolan ryan is deserving to be HOF, then longevity means something. Therefore, craig biggio reaching 3000 hits, which he will have next year, have 400+ sbs, have over 1800 runs (and maybe 2000 runs scored if he playes 2-3 more seasons) actually makes him HOF worthy. In fact, Biggio is more above the average on a per season basis than nolan ryan is.

If nolan ryan is HOF worthy and longevity doesn't mean much, then pedro is HOF worthy as I have told you above: pedro has more wins/year than nolan ryan and more ks/9, and pedro has higher win % than cy young, the man whom the best pitching award is named after. Btw, pedro did all of this in a hitters era of lowered pitchings mount and the existence "strikes vs. balls," and less starts per year.

And yes, if you need to check stats a few times to realize that RJ is one of the top pitchers in baseball history, I guess I am calling you stupid.



Maybe you should re-read that bit you quoted from me and pay special attention to that bolded bit.

Longevity is a part of greatness, but by itself it's not enough. Hanging around the league for 20 years before retiring is much less impressive than being dominant for 13 and then retiring.

Ryan does also have a little record relating to no-hitters.
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Postby ThatDude » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:54 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:
ThatDude wrote:I have a strong dislike of the relaxed standards for HOF entry, so I probably look at all current players more harshly than I should. When I take my kids to Cooperstown one of these days, I don't want to be looking at the plaques of Gary Sheffield and Frank Thomas.
See now Frank Thomas is a very interesting HOF discussion. He was incredible but he won't have 3000 hits and probably won't reach 500 HR. He has done enough to get my vote but I do wonder if he will get in cause the last few years haven't been so kind.


I'm completely unimpressed by players that can't field a lick and hide in the DH spot.

He had a great run from 91-97, but after that, he's not a standout player. I'd put Biggio in before Thomas.
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Postby Tavish » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:11 pm

ThatDude wrote:I do see that side of it. Especially as it relates to fathers bringing their kids to see their favorite players from their childhood.

And it is hard, if not impossible, to grade Player X from this era against the HOF'ers from the previous eras. But I think you do have to try to make some kind of comparision and not just let the greats from every era in.


Its hard if not impossible to compare any kind of player against a player from another era. Thats why usually the most meaningful comparisons is how a player stacks up against those around him. What makes a player great is how he performs against his peers, not how he "might have done" against the past players.

As much as I hate to admit it, you're right about Sandberg. He was certainly great, but not a legend. So let me ask you this, since I simply cannot come up with an unbiased opinion about him and he is absolutely a legend in my mind.

Ronnie Santo for the Hall, yes or no?


No, a very good player but comes up with a career that wasn't long enough to overcome not being a dominant player.
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Postby noseeum » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:13 pm

ThatDude wrote:
tianyi86 wrote:
ThatDude wrote:Aside from being hit by pitches, where does Biggio really stand out?

Longevity alone does not equal greatness.


In that case, nolan ryan is not that great of a pitcher at all. "Only 2" 20 win seasons and reached over 300 wins "only because he played for 27 years," averaging a little less than 12 wins per year. Nolan Ryan reached 5714 k's "only because he played 27 years", which average a little more than 210ks per year.

The point is, if you think nolan ryan is deserving to be HOF, then longevity means something. Therefore, craig biggio reaching 3000 hits, which he will have next year, have 400+ sbs, have over 1800 runs (and maybe 2000 runs scored if he playes 2-3 more seasons) actually makes him HOF worthy. In fact, Biggio is more above the average on a per season basis than nolan ryan is.

If nolan ryan is HOF worthy and longevity doesn't mean much, then pedro is HOF worthy as I have told you above: pedro has more wins/year than nolan ryan and more ks/9, and pedro has higher win % than cy young, the man whom the best pitching award is named after. Btw, pedro did all of this in a hitters era of lowered pitchings mount and the existence "strikes vs. balls," and less starts per year.

And yes, if you need to check stats a few times to realize that RJ is one of the top pitchers in baseball history, I guess I am calling you stupid.



Maybe you should re-read that bit you quoted from me and pay special attention to that bolded bit.

Longevity is a part of greatness, but by itself it's not enough. Hanging around the league for 20 years before retiring is much less impressive than being dominant for 13 and then retiring.

Ryan does also have a little record relating to no-hitters.


No hitters, to me, are meaningless for Hall consideration. They still amount to only 7 games in his career. Cool, interesting stat, but that's it.
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Postby ThatDude » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:22 pm

Tavish wrote:
ThatDude wrote:I do see that side of it. Especially as it relates to fathers bringing their kids to see their favorite players from their childhood.

And it is hard, if not impossible, to grade Player X from this era against the HOF'ers from the previous eras. But I think you do have to try to make some kind of comparision and not just let the greats from every era in.


Its hard if not impossible to compare any kind of player against a player from another era. Thats why usually the most meaningful comparisons is how a player stacks up against those around him. What makes a player great is how he performs against his peers, not how he "might have done" against the past players.


While I do agree with that, given the greater number of teams in the league now, it seems to me that it would be easier for a player to stand above their peers in this era than it was for players to stand above their peers in eras past.


As much as I hate to admit it, you're right about Sandberg. He was certainly great, but not a legend. So let me ask you this, since I simply cannot come up with an unbiased opinion about him and he is absolutely a legend in my mind.

Ronnie Santo for the Hall, yes or no?


No, a very good player but comes up with a career that wasn't long enough to overcome not being a dominant player.


That damn diabetes.
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Postby noseeum » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:39 pm

ThatDude wrote:While I do agree with that, given the greater number of teams in the league now, it seems to me that it would be easier for a player to stand above their peers in this era than it was for players to stand above their peers in eras past.


Not true. As a sport matures, it becomes more and more difficult to dominate the sport. Plenty of articles about this. Rob Neyer has speculated that, perhaps, since more children are playing soccer, football, basketball now, that there MAY have been a regression. I would disagree, because the addition of minorities and international players has still resulted in a net INCREASE in the talent pool. Regardless, it's been proven that in general, the ability to dominate decreases over time in a sport.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:43 pm

Tavish wrote:
As much as I hate to admit it, you're right about Sandberg. He was certainly great, but not a legend. So let me ask you this, since I simply cannot come up with an unbiased opinion about him and he is absolutely a legend in my mind.

Ronnie Santo for the Hall, yes or no?


No, a very good player but comes up with a career that wasn't long enough to overcome not being a dominant player.


Tav, I'm wonder where you rank Santo all-time amoungst 3B?
He's around the top 10 IMO.
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Postby giants! » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:46 pm

I agree with ThatDude for most of what he is saying. He is saying that longevity by itself, without any other compelling factors, does not warrant hall of fame consideration. Would you say Harold Baines, Tommy John and others who played for 20+ years without ever coming anywhere near dominant are hall of famers.

I disagree about Biggio, although what I said earlier was misread by a lot of people. I said that I think Biggio is worthy of the hall, but I dont want him to go in on a first ballot, so there is no possible precedent that can be set, for when a player inevitably gets 3000 hits over 25 years( playing to the age Julio Franco is), without even being anywhere near a top player for an extended period of time(more than 2 years), he should not be a first ballot hall of famer.

Biggio should be a hall of famer in my book, but I can certainly understnad with ThatDude's opinions and agree with him to a certain extent.
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Postby Tavish » Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:20 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:Tav, I'm wonder where you rank Santo all-time amoungst 3B?
He's around the top 10 IMO.


I have him at #10, but there really haven't been many great 3B throughout history. The position is similar to Catcher (although not to the same extreme) in the fact that left handed fielders are excluded. The 2000s are looking fairly similar to the 80s in that there are several thirdbasemen who have a great shot of making it to the upper echelon of the list. Rolen, Chipper, A-Rod,
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Postby giants! » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:44 pm

Tavish wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:Tav, I'm wonder where you rank Santo all-time amoungst 3B?
He's around the top 10 IMO.


I have him at #10, but there really haven't been many great 3B throughout history. The position is similar to Catcher (although not to the same extreme) in the fact that left handed fielders are excluded. The 2000s are looking fairly similar to the 80s in that there are several thirdbasemen who have a great shot of making it to the upper echelon of the list. Rolen, Chipper, A-Rod,


who else do you have in the top 10. The only 3b's that stand out to me are Schmidt, Brett, Robinson, and Matthews. Then there is a lower tier with Baker, Kell, Boggs, and Traynor.
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