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Postby Pogotheostrich » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:00 am

Coppermine wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:I'm just curous and don't really wanna go into the stats but was Pujols really the best 1B in the NL?


Technically; no...

NL 1B FPCT:

Helton: .997
Garciaparra: .996
Hatteberg: .996
Pujols: .996
LaRoche: .996

Helton had the most putouts, least errors, most double-plays, and most innings played.

Pujols had the most assists, but was second to Adrien Gonzalez, who sported a .995 FPCT.

I'm sorry but if you are using fielding % as you're main gauge on defensive ability you need to look deeper. It doesn't take range into effect at all and a .001% difference is nothing. PO for 1B are skewed because they get one for every force out at first.
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Postby Havok1517 » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:10 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:I'm just curous and don't really wanna go into the stats but was Pujols really the best 1B in the NL?


Technically; no...

NL 1B FPCT:

Helton: .997
Garciaparra: .996
Hatteberg: .996
Pujols: .996
LaRoche: .996

Helton had the most putouts, least errors, most double-plays, and most innings played.

Pujols had the most assists, but was second to Adrien Gonzalez, who sported a .995 FPCT.

I'm sorry but if you are using fielding % as you're main gauge on defensive ability you need to look deeper. It doesn't take range into effect at all and a .001% difference is nothing. PO for 1B are skewed because they get one for every force out at first.


I've seen Gonzalez and Pujols play and while Pujols has come leaps and bounds at 1st (coming from the OF & 3B) Gonzalez is clearly the better defender. Also, I'm guessing Nomar has a better glove considering he used to play SS at a very high level. Just another case of the best offensive player getting an award that he didn't deserve.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:13 am

Havok1517 wrote:I've seen Gonzalez and Pujols play and while Pujols has come leaps and bounds at 1st (coming from the OF & 3B) Gonzalez is clearly the better defender. Also, I'm guessing Nomar has a better glove considering he used to play SS at a very high level. Just another case of the best offensive player getting an award that he didn't deserve.
Gonzalez is great but Pujols covers the most ground I've seen of any 1B. Helton is probably better at picking bad throws than both of them.
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Postby Havok1517 » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:27 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:I've seen Gonzalez and Pujols play and while Pujols has come leaps and bounds at 1st (coming from the OF & 3B) Gonzalez is clearly the better defender. Also, I'm guessing Nomar has a better glove considering he used to play SS at a very high level. Just another case of the best offensive player getting an award that he didn't deserve.
Gonzalez is great but Pujols covers the most ground I've seen of any 1B. Helton is probably better at picking bad throws than both of them.


Well then you haven't seen Derek Lee, Minny, Snow, even Tex.
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:33 am

Hey, I'm not using FPCT as my main indicator of getting a Gold Glove; but I don't watch every player, in every game, all season long either. Seems like a lot of Cards fans are proclaiming that Yadier deserves it based on their own observations. I have issues with that. If Yadie deserves it, then he deserves it, but the numbers don't lie. Ausmus is a fine defensive catcher; perhaps if the position as a whole, that is, throwing out runners were truly factored in, Molina would run away with the award. Fact is, Ausmus made less errors, i.e. had less passed balls and played more innings than Molina.

Ausmus had 1 passed ball all season; Yadier had 7. Blame it on the scorers if you want, the numbers don't lie:

Ausmus: Best fielding percentage, most innings played, least errors, least passed balls (by far), most double plays turned... Ausmus was the better defensive catcher, I'm sorry. Molina had the best caught stealing % in the league, but that just doesn't factor into gold glove... perhaps it should for catchers.

If you're upset about the fielding percentage thing, I would say that passed balls would be a fantastic indicator of the defensive effectiveness of a catcher...

NL C PB's

Ausmus: 1
Schneider: 5
Martin: 5
McCann: 5
Molina: 7
Last edited by Coppermine on Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:37 am

Coppermine wrote:Hey, I'm not using FPCT as my main indicator of getting a Gold Glove; but I don't watch every player, in every game, all season long either. Seems like a lot of Cards fans are proclaiming that Yadier deserves it based on their own observations. I have issues with that. If Yadie deserves it, then he deserves it, but the numbers don't lie. Ausmus is a fine defensive catcher; perhaps if the position as a whole, that is, throwing out runners were truly factored in, Molina would run away with the award. Fact is, Ausmus made less errors, i.e. had less passed balls and played more innings than Molina.

Ausmus had 1 passed ball all season; Yadier had 7. Blame it on the scorers if you want, the numbers don't lie:

Ausmus: Best fielding percentage, most innings played, least errors, least passed balls (by far), most double plays turned... Ausmus was the better defensive catcher, I'm sorry. Molina had the best caught stealing % in the league, but that just doesn't factor into gold glove... perhaps it should for catchers.
Why would CS% not factor in for best defensive catcher?
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:40 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:
Coppermine wrote:Hey, I'm not using FPCT as my main indicator of getting a Gold Glove; but I don't watch every player, in every game, all season long either. Seems like a lot of Cards fans are proclaiming that Yadier deserves it based on their own observations. I have issues with that. If Yadie deserves it, then he deserves it, but the numbers don't lie. Ausmus is a fine defensive catcher; perhaps if the position as a whole, that is, throwing out runners were truly factored in, Molina would run away with the award. Fact is, Ausmus made less errors, i.e. had less passed balls and played more innings than Molina.

Ausmus had 1 passed ball all season; Yadier had 7. Blame it on the scorers if you want, the numbers don't lie:

Ausmus: Best fielding percentage, most innings played, least errors, least passed balls (by far), most double plays turned... Ausmus was the better defensive catcher, I'm sorry. Molina had the best caught stealing % in the league, but that just doesn't factor into gold glove... perhaps it should for catchers.
Why would CS% not factor in for best defensive catcher?


From what I understand, it doesn't... I'd argue that it's part of the defensive ability of the catcher, but the Gold Glove from what I understand it based on actual fielding rather than throwing. Short Stops aren't judged on the percentage of runners they throw at first, but more or less how many errors they make. Catchers are different breed, but throwing out steals, as far as I can tell, doesn't factor into the Gold Glove awarding.

And even it it DID, I'd still argue that Ausmus gave Molina a run for his money, considering all of the defensive stats available.

And whoever said that poor-hitting catchers are automatically assumed to be great fielders as an excuse for Ausmus getting the award:

Ausmus: 37 2 39 .230
Molina: 29 6 49 .216

They both pretty much sucked offensively.
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Postby Havok1517 » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:49 am

Coppermine wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:
Coppermine wrote:Hey, I'm not using FPCT as my main indicator of getting a Gold Glove; but I don't watch every player, in every game, all season long either. Seems like a lot of Cards fans are proclaiming that Yadier deserves it based on their own observations. I have issues with that. If Yadie deserves it, then he deserves it, but the numbers don't lie. Ausmus is a fine defensive catcher; perhaps if the position as a whole, that is, throwing out runners were truly factored in, Molina would run away with the award. Fact is, Ausmus made less errors, i.e. had less passed balls and played more innings than Molina.

Ausmus had 1 passed ball all season; Yadier had 7. Blame it on the scorers if you want, the numbers don't lie:

Ausmus: Best fielding percentage, most innings played, least errors, least passed balls (by far), most double plays turned... Ausmus was the better defensive catcher, I'm sorry. Molina had the best caught stealing % in the league, but that just doesn't factor into gold glove... perhaps it should for catchers.
Why would CS% not factor in for best defensive catcher?


From what I understand, it doesn't... I'd argue that it's part of the defensive ability of the catcher, but the Gold Glove from what I understand it based on actual fielding rather than throwing. Short Stops aren't judged on the percentage of runners they throw at first, but more or less how many errors they make. Catchers are different breed, but throwing out steals, as far as I can tell, doesn't factor into the Gold Glove awarding.

And even it it DID, I'd still argue that Ausmus gave Molina a run for his money, considering all of the stats available.


Hmmm...but throwing errors from either a catcher or a shortstop does? But shouldn't assists count since better fielders get to balls and make plays that other can't for better or worse. Also, runner usually run on lesser catchers but errors still count. That doesn't make any sense. I would put Molina over Ausmus but not Pujols over Gonzo or Helton. Thats just plain popularity. Just like Bonds doesn't deserve some of the GG he has. Biggio stole GGs from Brett Boone for like 2 years.
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:56 am

Ausmus:
Stat Numbers NL Rank
Innings 1125.2 1st
Assists 63 4th
Errors 2 1st
DP's 9 3rd
Field % .998 1st
Passed Balls 1 1st
CS % .221 8th

Molina:
Innings 1037.1 3rd
Assists 80 1st
Errors 4 2nd
DP's 6 10th
Field % .995 2nd
Passed Balls 7 5th <--this stat lost it for him
CS % .439 1st

If someone asked me if the gold glove at catcher should be based on one, single stat... I would say Passed Balls. FPCT a close second. I don't put CS% in high regard because there are too many great defensive catcher who have mediocre CS%... anything over 30% is considered "great."

Many people argue that Johnny Bench and Yogi Berra didn't have great CS%, but it doesn't matter; they were masters of their craft... catching. Team leadership, pitch calling and defensive maneuvering are a big part of being a great catcher, if not the biggest. I don't know what Johnny Bench's CS% is, but I bet it's closer to Ausmus than Molina.
Last edited by Coppermine on Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:57 am

In short; I'd put Ausmus over Molina and Helton over Pujols...

Shall we debate the Pujols/Helton stats? Probably not since Pujols won it and the Cards fans are happy :-D
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