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Postby Pogotheostrich » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:59 am

Coppermine wrote:From what I understand, it doesn't... I'd argue that it's part of the defensive ability of the catcher, but the Gold Glove from what I understand it based on actual fielding rather than throwing. Short Stops aren't judged on the percentage of runners they throw at first, but more or less how many errors they make. Catchers are different breed, but throwing out steals, as far as I can tell, doesn't factor into the Gold Glove awarding.
The awards states ""superior individual fielding performance" however you want to interpret it is up to you.
I'll take the 2 errors and 6 more PB than Ausmus while allowing 23 less SB and thowing out 12 more stealing. Cause I guarantee you that performance behind the does more to win games.
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:05 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:
Coppermine wrote:From what I understand, it doesn't... I'd argue that it's part of the defensive ability of the catcher, but the Gold Glove from what I understand it based on actual fielding rather than throwing. Short Stops aren't judged on the percentage of runners they throw at first, but more or less how many errors they make. Catchers are different breed, but throwing out steals, as far as I can tell, doesn't factor into the Gold Glove awarding.
The awards states ""superior individual fielding performance" however you want to interpret it is up to you.
I'll take the 2 errors and 6 more PB than Ausmus while allowing 23 less SB and thowing out 12 more stealing. Cause I guarantee you that performance behind the does more to win games.


I would probably agree with that; I can't find anything through my own research to suggest that the gold glove award to catchers includes throwing out base stealers.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:13 am

Coppermine wrote:I would probably agree with that; I can't find anything through my own research to suggest that the gold glove award to catchers includes throwing out base stealers.

Seems like a pretty big leap to take IMO since most of defensive value comes from stopping the running game. Do you not take into effect players arms for the GG since it only says fielding?
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:15 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:
Coppermine wrote:I would probably agree with that; I can't find anything through my own research to suggest that the gold glove award to catchers includes throwing out base stealers.

Seems like a pretty big leap to take IMO since most of defensive value comes from stopping the running game. Do you not take into effect players arms for the GG since it only says fielding?


It doesn't matter what I take into account because I don't decide who wins gold glove; all I know is that based on the fielding stats, without including CS percentages, Ausmus runs away with the award. But I don't know how the voting works, so it's not really for me to say.

If you want my opinion, then yes, I think CS% should be part, and perhaps a big part, in awarding the Gold Glove to catchers.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:45 am

Coppermine wrote:Shall we debate the Pujols/Helton stats? Probably not since Pujols won it and the Cards fans are happy :-D
Let's take a looks at Pujols vs. Helton. 1B defense is always hard for me cause PO are useless due to the fact they get so many and one of the most important things for a defensive 1B to due is pick balls on bad throws and those don't show up in the box score.

Helton played 48 more innings and has 2 less errors than Pujols. The thing that really stands out to me is that Pujols has 23 more assists. I guess it is possible that teams bunted more against STL or that more GB were hit to 1B but Pujols RF and ZR are higher too.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:58 am

sportsaddict wrote:Also, I forgot to mention that it is my belief that win shares are the most worthless stats created. How can you actually statistically show the importance of a player to their team? I think this stat is just stupid and shouldn't be brought up in any argument.


Runs created does a nice job of showing importance of a player to their team.

FRAA Fielding runs above average

Pujols 17
Helton 3

Molina 18
Ausmus 6
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Postby mak1277 » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:39 am

Here's the problem with all your arguments...the people voting for this particular award aren't looking at stats. It's the managers that vote for GG's, and I guarantee you that most of them aren't even looking at fielding percentage.

To debate the winners of GG's is an exercise in futility.

Postscript - There's a flaw in using purely caught stealing % to rate catchers...too much is dependent on the pitcher. I'm not saying that Molina isn't good, because he is (although his pickoff throws to first are a disaster waiting to happen). The point is, though, unless you religiously watch BOTH Molina and Ausmus play then you can't logically debate the point (same, really, goes for any discussion about Player X vs. Player Y).
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:29 pm

I did a little research, and it looks like mak is pretty much right:

The award winner for each position is determined by a plurality vote. In 1957, a committee of 19 sportswriters voted for the award winner. In 1958, active players voted for the award winner. The process of players voting for the award lasted until 1965. Since 1965 MLB managers and coaches have comprised the electorate. The voting structure is relatively simple, as managers and coaches vote for one player in their league whom they feel has been the best defensive player at each position. The vote is conducted near the
end of the baseball season and the only stipulation is that voterscannot vote for players on their own team. The final balloting is covered in a cloud of secrecy — complete vote totals are not available for the Gold Glove award, which is unlike most other MLB awards.

Most other recognized awards in MLB, including the Most
Valuable Player, the Cy Young, the Rookie of the Year, and Hall of Fame voting, have complete vote totals available for each year.
The only rules governing the voting process are that each voter selects only one player at each position and that a voter cannot vote for players from his own team. Thus, the minimum standard that must be met for eligibility is that the player must be in the league at the time of the vote. Historically this has not led to positional inconsistencies, such as a shortstop winning the first base award, but the recent selection of one award winner caused a considerable amount of controversy. The AL Gold Glove winner at first base in 1999 was Rafael Palmeiro of the Texas Rangers. The controversy was not about Palmeiro’s fielding ability, as he had won the award in the past, but about the fact that Palmeiro played in 158 games during
the season and only 28 of them (18%) were at first base. In fact, he won the Gold Glove award for first base while winning another award, the Silver Slugger award as the AL’s best designated hitter, which is a non-fielding position. While the selection of Palmeiro is perhaps the most extreme example, other past selections suggest that voters for the Gold Glove award rely more on reputation than current performance when casting their ballots
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