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Postby mweir145 » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:58 pm

wrveres wrote:
j_d_mcnugent wrote:
wrveres wrote:here is an interesting article form SI, prior to Mark breaking any records ...

"It's just a fluke of the law that this is totally unstudied," said Dr. John Lombardo of Ohio State, the NFL's adviser on steroids. "There are no adverse-effect studies. There are no efficacy studies. Because the people who produce it never had to do them, thanks to the [federal] supplement act of 1994. Androstenedione is no different than taking testosterone.

"Androstenedione is a steroid," he said. "It has anabolic qualities. Therefore it is an anabolic steroid."

Anabolic steroids have been associated with potentially fatal side effects, including heart attacks, cancers, liver dysfunction, and severe disorders of mood and mental function.


right, and thats garbage. andro isnt a steroid. it isnt now, and never was. it was an alleged steroid precursor. translation, it was alleged (key being alleged) that when taken it would metabolize into testosterone. it was promoted as a legal way to get the benefits of steroids. it has subsequently been show that it does not metabolize into testosterone. it was essentially like the products in all of those emails that end up in your spam folder. it wasnt illegal to posses. it was not banned by mlb.


it is banned, in baseball and the USA
It is classified by the FDA as a steriod.

If I'm not mistaken, back then it wasn't.
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Postby Deuce » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:01 pm

RocketsDWM wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
RocketsDWM wrote:
wrveres wrote:
RocketsDWM wrote:jj - why would an athlete take HGH or steroids if it didnt help them? why even bother taking it?


hmm, couldn't the same argument be made about "speed"?
But yet you don't see all the haters wanting to hang Cal Ripken from his toes? imagine that... my guess is the media told you to think that way. Its always been my premise. from day one ... baaaaahh


So the athletes were just duped into thinking that steroids and HGH helped them and they mindlessy put a substance into their body because it might help them. Sounds right. Not like professional athletes carefully consider everything they put into their body and care about what they take. Baaah humbug.

I remember you told me sometime last year that you had read The Game of Shadows. Weren't there several cases in that book where some of the track athletes just went to Conte just because they heard from their peers what he could do for them? According to that book, he then provided the new guys with the same "package" of substances that everyone else had, and if I remember correctly, some of the athletes just took them without even really knowing or asking what they were. Athletes will take anything that they think can give them an edge just to try to stay on top of the competition and gain an advantage.


Read it awhile ago but from what I remember those athletes had improved performances because of the drugs. So is it unreasonable to think that taking these drugs would help the athlete? They did the drugs because it did help them.


And deuce - you knew what you were getting into when creating this thread....dont be that ignorant. If it was "Bonds for MVP" - I could live with that. It is a legitimate question that could be debated. But your basically sending an open invite to all of the supposed "haters" to spew their rhetoric so that you can answer them and spew the same bs that is always said in these threads.

We know where both sides stand. And no one is moving.


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If you had read my sig prior to the Bonds/Zito. It actually did read 'Sometimes ignorance is bliss, other times...' My goal has been accomplished. We have several separate discussion going at the same time in this thread. I've even seen middle ground reached. I also noticed more positive posts in this thread, than in some of the others. There was no malicous intent when I created the thread. Purely fun. And boy am enjoying the discussion.
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Postby TheRock » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:03 pm

wrveres wrote:Anabolic steroids have been associated with potentially fatal side effects, including heart attacks, cancers, liver dysfunction, and severe disorders of mood and mental function.


And here's the heart of the issue. Steroids are dangerous and therefore can't be lumped together with pine tar as "just another way those silly ball players try to cheat". Can't believe the number of people flippantly defending the poster boy for steroids himself. How many young athletes will suffer injuries or die trying to be like this ape of a man you can't stop praising?
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Postby wrveres » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:17 pm

TheRock wrote:
wrveres wrote:Anabolic steroids have been associated with potentially fatal side effects, including heart attacks, cancers, liver dysfunction, and severe disorders of mood and mental function.


And here's the heart of the issue. Steroids are dangerous and therefore can't be lumped together with pine tar as "just another way those silly ball players try to cheat". Can't believe the number of people flippantly defending the poster boy for steroids himself. How many young athletes will suffer injuries or die trying to be like this ape of a man you can't stop praising?



an ape huh,, good stuff.
what about the children ... classic.

Hey, maybe you can show me a link to the bodies. I hate to sound morbid, but I have searched for years and cannot find all these bodies located in the morgues do to steroid use. There just isn't any.
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Postby TheRock » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:27 pm

wrveres wrote:
TheRock wrote:
wrveres wrote:Anabolic steroids have been associated with potentially fatal side effects, including heart attacks, cancers, liver dysfunction, and severe disorders of mood and mental function.


And here's the heart of the issue. Steroids are dangerous and therefore can't be lumped together with pine tar as "just another way those silly ball players try to cheat". Can't believe the number of people flippantly defending the poster boy for steroids himself. How many young athletes will suffer injuries or die trying to be like this ape of a man you can't stop praising?



an ape huh,, good stuff.
what about the children ... classic.

Hey, maybe you can show me a link to the bodies. I hate to sound morbid, but I have searched for years and cannot find all these bodies located in the morgues do to steroid use. There just isn't any.


Perhaps you should read the bolded section above. FROM YOUR OWN POST. Sorry, didn't know it would be so hard for you to find.
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Postby Deuce » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:28 pm

RocketsDWM wrote:
wrveres wrote:
j_d_mcnugent wrote:
he was proven to be cheating in 1998? i guess i missed that.



as a matter of fact, in 1998 when the story broke, most major media outlets absolutely bashed the reporter who did the homework and found out that Mark was taking steriods. They kicked that guys arse in print nationwide for weeks, and you all believed it, cus well that is what you do. "Its in the paper so it must be true. Ubiased too"


So when the SF slugger aka "national treasure" tested positive for amphetamines, that was all the media too?


How did you find out? Was anyone else caught during that year. Why has only his name been leaked. To sell papers. One thing you will never hear me say is whether or not he has done any performance enhancing supplements. Honestly, I can't say one way or another. I personally haven't seen him do them. And am not sure whether or not I care. He is paid to entertain me. I am entertained both by watching him play, and posting in threads.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:32 pm

YESSSSS!!! A "what about the kids" post. Those are always my favorite.
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Postby wrveres » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:33 pm

TheRock wrote:
wrveres wrote:
TheRock wrote:
wrveres wrote:Anabolic steroids have been associated with potentially fatal side effects, including heart attacks, cancers, liver dysfunction, and severe disorders of mood and mental function.


And here's the heart of the issue. Steroids are dangerous and therefore can't be lumped together with pine tar as "just another way those silly ball players try to cheat". Can't believe the number of people flippantly defending the poster boy for steroids himself. How many young athletes will suffer injuries or die trying to be like this ape of a man you can't stop praising?



an ape huh,, good stuff.
what about the children ... classic.

Hey, maybe you can show me a link to the bodies. I hate to sound morbid, but I have searched for years and cannot find all these bodies located in the morgues do to steroid use. There just isn't any.


Perhaps you should read the bolded section above. FROM YOUR OWN POST. Sorry, didn't know it would be so hard for you to find.


So you are saying you don't have a link.
But yet you are convinced that kids are just kicking it left and right trying to be like "Ape Man" .. (good choice of words by the way).
I am not buying it. A link with some actual percentages of toe tags might sway me though.
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Postby Deuce » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:35 pm

j_d_mcnugent wrote:
wrveres wrote:
j_d_mcnugent wrote:
wrveres wrote:
j_d_mcnugent wrote:
wrveres wrote:
j_d_mcnugent wrote: is that the one that relied pretty heavily on the testimony of a steroid dealer though?


I thought I followed the story fairly closely, but I don't remember any steroids dealer.


then which one are you referring too?


when they pulled the Andro out of Marks Locker.


oh for christ's sake...that wasnt a banned substance. how is that "already been found to be a user." i dont think you can call us sheep for overlooking mark taking an over the counter supplement.


and as soon as they found out what it was, they banned it.


thats not the issue here. its whether or not it was OK for people to cheer for mcgwire in 1998. in '98 he hadnt been show to have done anything wrong.


and this part doesnt matter, but you arent exactly correct. they banned it after a knee jerk reaction based on the claims of the product. when they actually found out what it was they learned andro did nothing at all.


Jose and a syringe mean anything to you. It wasn't only Andor, but that is very romantic. I was also entertained by Mark Mcgwire. Would you care if Mike Tyson was on steroids during his hey day?
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Postby OREO fan » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:48 pm

wrveres wrote:you know why all you haters have no leg to stand on ... why your moral finger waggering has ZERO creditability?

Because when Mark hit his dingers you all stood and cheered, renamed freeways, built statues after him and the such, and he had already been found to be a user ... and you didn't care ...
why did you do this?

the media told you to.


I have your moral finger wagging right here ...


People were ignorant in 1998 as has been pointed out many, many times. The comparison to Bonds chasing Aaron now is not valid. People vilify McGwire now as well.

I honestly don't remember the country's reaction to Bonds breaking McGwire's record in 2001. Was it predominantly positive or negative?
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