Return to Baseball Leftovers

Jim Thome..500 HR's, but not a HOF'er?

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: Jim Thome..500 HR's, but not a HOF'er?

Postby Tavish » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:03 pm

The Cow wrote:Well you named a bunch of HOFers IMO. Some are on the fence, IMO. None of those guys are definately out. The only guys on that list that rival Thome as a power hitter are Shef, Vlad and Manny and I think all of those will be HOFers when all is said and done.


I understand where you are coming from and I think Thome has a case, I just disagree that he is anywhere near a shoe in. If you are expecting Shef, Vlad, Manny, Alomar, Biggio and a good chance for Chipper, Vlad, and Ichiro to get into the Hall and then add Thomas, Bagwell, Piazza, Pudge, Griffey, Sosa, Bonds, A-Rod, Jeter, Maddux, Clemens, Pedro, RJ, Glavine, Rivera, and Hoffman as shoe ins then look at and possibly Smoltz, Schilling, Helton, Walker, and Kent you have about 10-15 years worth of HoF nominations. Of course these all won't retire the same time as Thome but that is his competition. There are only a couple guys on that list I could make a case that Thome is more deserving.

If a player's biggest attraction to get in is because of his great slugging ability he needs more than 1 slugging title, 1 HR title and 3 or 4 top 5 finishes in those categories for me to think of him as a shoe-in.
Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 10554
(Past Year: -510)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Jim Thome..500 HR's, but not a HOF'er?

Postby The Cow » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:17 pm

Well all the guys you named are deserving of at the least strong consideration. If the players have the numbers they should get in the HOF. But like you said they won't all retire in the same year, but sure they will be compared to one another. Players could have better longetivity due to the fact that they take better care of themselves nowadays and of course there is the whole steroid thing, but I know that has been talked about to death in this forum. In the past 500 HRs was an automatic ticket to the HOF, the bar appears to be raising, but I don't know that one should be punished for taking better care of yourself. The bar could be 550, I have heard that tossed around. Assuming Thome plays 2 more years he is a virtual lock to reach 550 HRs alot of the guys you named won't sniff 550 HRs, I still say 600 is possible. Thome could hang around like the Big Hurt and pad his HR totals. Not knocking Frank he should get in the HOF, just saying that some players hang around and pad their stats. Eddie Murray, Rickie Henderson are 2 HOFers that padded their stats a bit and I am sure there are others. I am just saying that Thome and even 530 HRs and his other stats deserves the HOF. There are plenty of lesser players in the HOF.

The Cow
Give Snakes his due!!!! Snakes deserves the fantasy expert icon!!! Go Snakes!!!!
The Cow
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1748
(Past Year: -6)
Joined: 12 May 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Eating refried beans

Re: Jim Thome..500 HR's, but not a HOF'er?

Postby The Cow » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:58 pm

Well Jim Thome hit HR #500 tonight in walk off fashion on Jim Thome Bobble Head night no less. He is on his way to Cooperstown.

The Cow
Give Snakes his due!!!! Snakes deserves the fantasy expert icon!!! Go Snakes!!!!
The Cow
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1748
(Past Year: -6)
Joined: 12 May 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Eating refried beans

Re: Jim Thome..500 HR's, but not a HOF'er?

Postby George_Foreman » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:06 pm

He hit in an era of sluggers. His numbers stack up nicely all-time, but they're just very good when you put them in the context of his peers. The fact that he played 1B will hurt him as well. Do you put him in ahead of Frank Thomas? What about Jeff Bagwell?

Give me another 3-5 years of top-teir production and then he's a shoo-in. Until then, he's just a "probably" in my book.
"I don't buy everything I read,
I havn't even read everything I've bought"

"I find it more comforting to believe that this [life] isn't simply a test."
George_Foreman
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 4342
(Past Year: -9)
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: at Morimoto's, eating $50 worth of sushi

Re: Jim Thome..500 HR's, but not a HOF'er?

Postby The Cow » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:35 pm

George_Foreman wrote:He hit in an era of sluggers. His numbers stack up nicely all-time, but they're just very good when you put them in the context of his peers. The fact that he played 1B will hurt him as well. Do you put him in ahead of Frank Thomas? What about Jeff Bagwell?

Give me another 3-5 years of top-teir production and then he's a shoo-in. Until then, he's just a "probably" in my book.


Thome is certainly ahead of Bagwell. I know Bagwell gets a lot of love in fantasy forums because he did have some nice fantasy years, but if I am comparing Bagwell to Thome. I have to look at the fact that Thome is ahead in HRs 500 to 449. I then have to look at some of the other stats, that I consider key that Thome is also ahead of Bagwell in, lets see: SLG%, OPS, AB per HR, I then have to look at the fact that Thome is certainly going to add to these stats over the couple years. I know Bagwell won an MVP, but so what? The MVP vote is kinda silly when comparing players across their careers because a player can be a flat out better hitter, have a flat out better year than an MVP, only to not win the award because he wasn't on a playoff team. Not saying that applies here, just saying that the MVP award needs to be given to the best player regardless of teams finish. Thats another topic though.


I should add that whereas Bagwell had the higher BA .297 to .282 their OBP is identical at . 408, so Thome's patience (BB'S) made up for the gap in BA.

The Cow
Give Snakes his due!!!! Snakes deserves the fantasy expert icon!!! Go Snakes!!!!
The Cow
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1748
(Past Year: -6)
Joined: 12 May 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Eating refried beans

Re: Jim Thome..500 HR's, but not a HOF'er?

Postby Yoda » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:40 pm

Thome is not a HOFer right now. I could be wrong but think he will need 600 to become one.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21191
(Past Year: -153)
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: Jim Thome..500 HR's, but not a HOF'er?

Postby The Cow » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:42 pm

As for Thome versus Thomas, I would give the edge to Thomas, but Thomas should retire before Thome, so Thome could pass Frank in some stats. Very close between Thome and Thomas. Both Thome and Thomas should be HOFers, Bagwell is on the fence. Thome is clearly ahead of the likes of Delgado and Giambi, just look at the numbers.

The Cow
Give Snakes his due!!!! Snakes deserves the fantasy expert icon!!! Go Snakes!!!!
The Cow
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1748
(Past Year: -6)
Joined: 12 May 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Eating refried beans

Re: Jim Thome..500 HR's, but not a HOF'er?

Postby Pogotheostrich » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:03 pm

I think Bagwell is a good comparision. I'd put both in but I'd imagine they both will have trouble getting in. Bagwell's MVP might be the kicker in the eyes of the voters.
Image
Pogotheostrich
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyePick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 20471
(Past Year: -946)
Joined: 9 Dec 2002
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: St. Louis

Re: Jim Thome..500 HR's, but not a HOF'er?

Postby The Cow » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:24 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:I think Bagwell is a good comparision. I'd put both in but I'd imagine they both will have trouble getting in. Bagwell's MVP might be the kicker in the eyes of the voters.


Bagwell 449 HRs and Thome 549 HRs this is a very realistic scenario, so Thome would be out despite having 100 more HRs and Bagwell in? Just because Bagwell won an MVP. You see to me the MVP thing is silly, I mean a guy in the AL could lose out to an AROD with 55 HRs despite cranking 45 HRs wheras the guy in the NL could win with only 35 HRs. Yet both are MVPS, but the guy with the better numbers than the NL guy is well a runner up. I think there should be just one MVP, I also think that MVP is over rated.

The Cow
Give Snakes his due!!!! Snakes deserves the fantasy expert icon!!! Go Snakes!!!!
The Cow
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1748
(Past Year: -6)
Joined: 12 May 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Eating refried beans

Re: Jim Thome..500 HR's, but not a HOF'er?

Postby thedude » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:10 am

I would put Jim Rice, Dale Murphy, and Andre Dawson in before Thome.

Thome has those nice counting numbers, but no MVPs (highest finish was 4th), only one silver slugger (from a guy who is only a slugger), no gold gloves, and five allstar games. Are awards the end all and be all? Of course not, but they do indicate dominant players and Jim Thome was and is not enough of a dominant player to make the hall of fame, at least until Rice, Murphy, and Dawson make it.
"I do not think baseball of today is any better than it was 30 years ago... I still think Radbourne is the greatest of the pitchers." John Sullivan 1914-Old athletes never change.
thedude
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 8014
(Past Year: -397)
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Good Life

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron