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Freddy Sanchez -Giants .. Tim Alderson -Pirates

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Re: Freddy Sanchez -Giants .. Tim Alderson -Pirates

Postby GSes » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:52 pm

RAmst23 wrote:
Yoda wrote:You guys are way overrating Alderson for sure. :-°


Don't provide specifics to what and who you're talking about or anything. That would just be silly and harder to do than making blanket statements.

The biggest point for this trade is the perceived value of Alderson. Maybe he burns out, or gets injured before he hits the majors. Doesn't matter, Sabean should/could have gotten way more for his prospect. Top 25 prospect in MLB for Freddy freaking Sanchez, really?

But regardless, no one is arguing that this is a good trade. All we're doing is defining what level of suck applies.


;-D ;-D
took the works right out of my mouth. People don't understand that it DOES NOT matter what they end up turing into, that is just being results oriented. What matters is in this moment what the market value of each player is. And Alderson's value is very high while Sanchez is a contract dump player. Alderson could of hauled in way more.

People need to look at it from the outside looking in and the bigger picture..
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Re: Freddy Sanchez -Giants .. Tim Alderson -Pirates

Postby Yoda » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:55 pm

Yes because being ranked a top 50 prospect obviously means you will automatically be a stud. Especially if your fastball doesn't break 90. How many successful big league pitchers have a sub 90 fastball? Has anyone even seen Alderson pitch to even judge how good he is actually doing this year?
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Re: Freddy Sanchez -Giants .. Tim Alderson -Pirates

Postby Yoda » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:09 pm

Keith Law chat today at ESPN on Alderson:

"Tom V (Newtown, PA): Did Sabean know something about Alderson that the rest of us don't know?

Keith Law (1:12 PM): I'm guessing his player development people were telling him Alderson's fastball and curve had both gone backwards this year. If I didn't have history with Alderson in HS, I would probably have talked about this as too little for Pittsburgh, based solely on what Alderson is now. I've seen him much better than this, and I do like the feel for pitching, so I'm still giving him extra credit.

B (Walnut Creek, CA): Hey Keith, I know you've answered some questions about Alderson already, but I have an important one. At the time of the trade, was he still a Top 100 prospect? Grade B guy? It's hard for fans to find that out, and we need that information to make an informed decision on whether this was a good or bad trade.

Keith Law (2:03 PM): He'd be back end of a top 100 at best. I stuffed him at 26 on my preseason ranking because of age, performance, and the grade 55 or 60 curveball, but that pitch isn't there for him right now.

Josh (Detroit): So Alderson is more Ian Kennedy than Phil Hughes right now, but has shown Hughes type ability?

Keith Law (2:05 PM): Alderson is taller than IPK, has shown a better breaking ball, and is younger now than IPK was when he was drafted.

Jason (Orlando): Keith, what are your thoughts on Alderson? I saw that his velocity is down this year. Do you think he is injured or just destined to be a #5 type starter?

Keith Law (1:07 PM): I don't think he's injured, but he's not a real physical kid (yet, plenty of room to fill out) and his delivery has effort. He's gone backwards, that's absolutely a concern. One scout I talked to who saw him in July said he wrote him up as a 5th starter."
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Re: Freddy Sanchez -Giants .. Tim Alderson -Pirates

Postby JTWood » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:14 pm

Yoda wrote:Yes because being ranked a top 50 prospect obviously means you will automatically be a stud. Especially if your fastball doesn't break 90. How many successful big league pitchers have a sub 90 fastball? Has anyone even seen Alderson pitch to even judge how good he is actually doing this year?

His point is that other teams would have probably paid more for Alderson and his...

...

...

...potentiality. :-B
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Re: Freddy Sanchez -Giants .. Tim Alderson -Pirates

Postby Yoda » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:30 pm

Baseball America today:
Alderson, 20, was the Giants' fourth-best prospect entering the 2009 season. The 6-foot-7, 217-pounder was the 22nd overall pick in 2007 out of Scottsdale HS, and made two starts for the Arizona League Giants that year. In 2008, Alderson won the California League ERA title by going 13-4, 2.79 with 124 strikeouts in 145 innings pitched. Though he dominated the high Class A competition last year, Alderson hasn't been as flashy this year. Through 13 starts for Double-A Connecticut, Alderson is 6-1, 3.47 with 46 strikeouts in 73 innings.

Alderson relies on control, location and intelligence to get outs. He features an 88-92 mph fastball, though he's been sitting in the mid-to upper-80s for much of this season. Alderson's best pitch, however, may be his curveball, which ranked as the best in the organization before the season. It hasn't been as tight this year, but still grades out as a plus pitch. It's a mid-70s bender, and is his only pitch that routinely misses bats. With his decreased velocity and the jump up to Double-A's better competition, Alderson hasn't been able to strike opponents out at the same rate. He's also working on a two-seam fastball that has late life and a changeup. Alderson works to keep the ball low in the zone, but has been a one-to-one groundball-to-flyball pitcher for the Defenders. He might project more as a pitchabiility-type guy, but has the potential to be a middle of the rotation starter at some point in the future, but probably more of a fourth or fifth starter on a good team. At the very least, he could contribute to a big league bullpen right now.

At 6-foot-7, Alderson has a big frame that he's still growing into, but he isn't awkward. For a guy his size, he's pretty athletic. In high school, Alderson pitched exclusively out of the stretch, but he's been able to repeat his delivery out of the windup without any difficulty thus far. Still, he has a weird hitch in his motion, stabbing his arm in the back and double-pumping his stride foot in the front. It's surprising that the Giants didn't try to work that chink out of his delivery, but it adds some deception—his fastball seems faster to hitters because of the herky-jerky nature of his windup.
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Re: Freddy Sanchez -Giants .. Tim Alderson -Pirates

Postby Amatter32 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:37 pm

KCollins1304 wrote:
Amatter32 wrote:
KCollins1304 wrote:I'd rather have Alderson than the package that Cleveland got from Philly. :-b


I would take Philly's package over Alderson. 4 top 10 organizational prospects (including 2,3,4) is a lot better than one top 10 (number 3).

Carrasco and Knapp are both top 50 pitching prospects, Marson and Donald are top 200 prospects.


Comparing how prospects rank in one organization to how prospects rank in another organization is nearly futile. Not to mention that Carrasco, Knapp, Marson, and Donald have all been surpassed by Brown, Taylor, and Drabek and are(were) actually now the 4th-7th best prospects in the PHI organization. In First Inning's recent prospect list, which is not the best but a general idea of how people rank the prospects, they have Alderson at 22, Carrasco at 35, Knapp at 57, and Marson and Donald unranked. I would rather have the 22nd best prospect than the 35th, 57th, and 2 >100. Quality is almost always better than quantity with prospects. Alderson's stock is still on the rise while Carrasco, Marson, and Donald have all seen their stock drop this season. You may disagree with me that Alderson is better than those four prospects, but just that there is a debate to be had tells you how bad Cleveland and San Francisco got hosed when they were trading/trading for two players with values nowhere near each other(Sanchez and Lee).


It's not futile at all. Philadelphia was ranked by BA as having the 12th best organization, with 5 prospects in the top 200 (project prospect). San Fransico is 5th with 6 prospects in the top 200. If you were to combine the two it would looks something like this: Bumgarner, Posey, Alderson, Carrasco, Brown, Drabek, Knapp, Villalona. It doesn't really where they rank right now, PP has Posey-8, Carrasco-14, Brown-17, Bumgarner-19, Alderson-31, it doesn't really matter where they are. What it comes down to is math. I'd rather have 4 quality prospects than 1 quality prospect. You are right, it is better to have quality over quantity, but this isn't about quantity versus quality. All of these prospects are quality prospects. All the players involve project to be every day players. Marson and Donald are in the top 20 best positional players in their respective positions. I don't disagree that Alderson is the best prospect of the 5, but if I had the chance to take any of the 5 players, I would say yes for all of them. That's my point, I would take the package that could (realistically) give me two starting fielders and two pitchers over the package that could give me one pitcher. Cleveland did very well, they get two pitchers, one who can pitch for them now and another who is playing in his first pro season and has a high ceiling. Donald could be their starting SS (with Chisenhall moving to 3B) and Marson would be the heir to V-Mart if it wasn't for Carlos Santana. Lee is a Cy Young pitcher pitching well and is deserving of 4 prospects in the top 200. Sanchez wasn't worth 2 top 200 prospects and that is why he didn't get that value. Most of the guys who were traded haven't gotten that kind of value. Finally, Alderson's stock is not on the rise, a lot of people have his stock fall, like Yoda has explained.
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Re: Freddy Sanchez -Giants .. Tim Alderson -Pirates

Postby Yoda » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:53 am

There is no telling whether Alderson will go back to his 2008 or even 2007 version of himself. Velocity drop is pretty significant considering he isn't injured. Prospects flame out more frequently than not, especially pitching prospects. Plus prospect lists change very frequently and you can't look at his preseason ranking and assume that is what he is today.
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Re: Freddy Sanchez -Giants .. Tim Alderson -Pirates

Postby Padres Fan » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:03 am

GSes wrote:The biggest issue here is like I said earlier: Mark Derosa was acquired for practically nothing. He and Sanchez should have fairly similar real life value. and practically the same numbers... Sabean got owned.


DeRosa is more valuable than Sanchez due to his positional eligibility
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Re: Freddy Sanchez -Giants .. Tim Alderson -Pirates

Postby Iamfecked » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:44 pm

I am a big Giants fan and I'm actually excited about the trade. I still think Sanchez has a couple of good years left in him and Alderson is still just a prospect - doesn't mean he will be a great major league pitcher. Giants need all the offense they can get, I would have preferred Holliday or DeRosa but I'm not disappointed with Garko and Sanchez. Since the departure of Bonds, the Giants have become a small ball team..Sanchez and Garko tend to fit that style..
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Re: Freddy Sanchez -Giants .. Tim Alderson -Pirates

Postby Padres Fan » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:57 pm

Sanchez is a good #2 hitter, and since Frandsen, Velez, Burress couldn't handle 2B they needed someone. Maybe they did inquire on Kennedy, DeRosa, but maybe those teams wanted a different prospect, all the Pirates wanted was a prospect who has been clearly fading the last couple season's and who has no power arm, also remember Noah Lowry could still be in the Starting pitcher mix as well, he was 14-8 in 2007 and has been injured, also just had a rib removed to alleviate the shoulder issues and would be a great 5th starter possibly next season
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