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Re: 4/23-4/24 Venting, Cheering, Huff's Ding Dongs, and Stre

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:20 pm
by jpbusta
gotta luv the cheap saves.

Fuentes, Capps, Boggs. 3 waiver wired closers combine for 3.1 ip / 3 saves / 5ks / 0 era / .6 whip
:-D

Re: 4/23-4/24 Venting, Cheering, Huff's Ding Dongs, and Stre

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:22 pm
by mweir145
thedude wrote:Was Pedro Maritnez not dominating the AL East during the early career of Roy Halladay?

Sure, before Roy Halladay became Roy Halladay he was struggling as a 22-year-old rookie. But if you want to extend his era back to 1999, only RJ overtakes him by a few WAR. So what's your point about Pedro?

Is Tim Lincecum not pitching now?

Hold on, are you trying to imply that Lincecum is a better pitcher than Halladay right now? I would have thought reasonable people were past this nonsense already. :-b


I guess Halladay might be the best pitcher of the era in between, just like Arky Vaughan was the best position player for a very brief period of time at the end of Lou Gehrig's career and the start of Ted Williams' career.

Really reaching for an analogy there, eh? Halladay has been the best pitcher in baseball over the last 10 seasons and it's not even all that close. Was Arky Vaughn even the best position player in any season he ever played? It looks like even in his career year in 1935 Gehrig was actually better: http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... ar01.shtml

I don't think I'll ever understand the need for people to downplay Doc's accomplishments like they haven't happened over the last decade.

Re: 4/23-4/24 Venting, Cheering, Huff's Ding Dongs, and Stre

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:02 am
by Tavish
mweir145 wrote:I don't think I'll ever understand the need for people to downplay Doc's accomplishments like they haven't happened over the last decade.

If you want to put the statement just in terms of the last decade I don't think there is too much debate that Halladay has been the best pitcher. Of course that narrows down the the competition quite alot since it specifically covers Halladay's entire career as a starter and there are only a handful of players that have that same timeline. Really his only competition would be players like Santana, Sabathia, and Oswalt. CC is probably the closest of the group but his somewhat slow start gives Halladay a leg up. Santana's early decline takes him out of the discussion but his peak was as good if not better than Halladay's.

Re: 4/23-4/24 Venting, Cheering, Huff's Ding Dongs, and Stre

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:30 am
by mweir145
Tavish wrote:
mweir145 wrote:I don't think I'll ever understand the need for people to downplay Doc's accomplishments like they haven't happened over the last decade.

If you want to put the statement just in terms of the last decade I don't think there is too much debate that Halladay has been the best pitcher. Of course that narrows down the the competition quite alot since it specifically covers Halladay's entire career as a starter and there are only a handful of players that have that same timeline. Really his only competition would be players like Santana, Sabathia, and Oswalt. CC is probably the closest of the group but his somewhat slow start gives Halladay a leg up. Santana's early decline takes him out of the discussion but his peak was as good if not better than Halladay's.

OK, I'll just say decade if that makes it easier.

And yeah, Santana was on Halladay's level for a couple of years there, but tailed off in 2007. And Sabathia has never really been on Doc's level, outside of that one year that he completely destroyed the NL. Other guys like Felix, Johnson, and Lincecum might surpass Halladay's level at some point over the next few years but it certainly hasn't happened yet.

Just remembered this article of JoPo's that discusses potential HOF pitchers by "era." He groups them by the decades they were born in. Because of that, Pedro (1971) just barely makes it into the 70s:

http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/02/06/l ... -pitchers/

1971-on

Nobody in yet.

Hall of Fame near-certainties (2): Pedro Martinez, Roy Halladay

Hall of Fame contenders (6): Johan Santana, CC Sabathia, Tim Hudson, Roy Oswalt, Andy Pettitte, Mark Buehrle

Others to watch: Felix Hernandez, Cliff Lee, Zack Greinke, Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Adam Wainwright, Jon Lester, Justin Verlander, etc.

Comment: I have been surprised by how often I have found myself in discussions about whether or not Roy Halladay is already a Hall of Famer. The discussions are surprising because he’s pitching great and is signed for three or four more years, and there’s no reason to believe that he’s going to leave the stage any time soon. That said, I still say that if he retired tomorrow, yes, he should be a Hall of Famer. His impressive but somewhat spare 169-86 won-loss record should not obscure that he has been the best or second best pitcher in his league six or seven times. He has been a force of nature for a long time now. Maybe Dizzy Dean should be in the Hall of Fame and maybe he shouldn’t be, but what Dizzy Dean did for five years, Halladay has done for 10.

Re: 4/23-4/24 Venting, Cheering, Huff's Ding Dongs, and Stre

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:59 am
by jfg
Surprising that most here aren't willing to give pitchers of this era the respect deserved. Speaking of just modern eras who always are disrespected when it comes to pitching, Halladay isn't Clemens, Maddux, Pedro or RJ but he's a close fifth... and I don't think it's ridiculous to debate if he's as good or better than those guys. You can't fault a pitcher for the way they are handled now and the Hall is going to have to take that into account or else you aren't going to see any pitchers in the Hall ever again after the 90's guys are inducted. Either way, you can't judge a player on the things he wasn't given the chance to do, you can only judge him on what they did... and when Halladay has been given the chance he's been the best pitcher in the game or close to it consistently.

Re: 4/23-4/24 Venting, Cheering, Huff's Ding Dongs, and Stre

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:30 am
by AussieDodger
mweir145 wrote:
thedude wrote:Was Pedro Maritnez not dominating the AL East during the early career of Roy Halladay?

Sure, before Roy Halladay became Roy Halladay he was struggling as a 22-year-old rookie. But if you want to extend his era back to 1999, only RJ overtakes him by a few WAR. So what's your point about Pedro?

Is Tim Lincecum not pitching now?

Hold on, are you trying to imply that Lincecum is a better pitcher than Halladay right now? I would have thought reasonable people were past this nonsense already. :-b


I guess Halladay might be the best pitcher of the era in between, just like Arky Vaughan was the best position player for a very brief period of time at the end of Lou Gehrig's career and the start of Ted Williams' career.

Really reaching for an analogy there, eh? Halladay has been the best pitcher in baseball over the last 10 seasons and it's not even all that close. Was Arky Vaughn even the best position player in any season he ever played? It looks like even in his career year in 1935 Gehrig was actually better: http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... ar01.shtml

I don't think I'll ever understand the need for people to downplay Doc's accomplishments like they haven't happened over the last decade.


Halladay is no Randy Johnson

Re: 4/23-4/24 Venting, Cheering, Huff's Ding Dongs, and Stre

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:12 pm
by bigken117
Pedro

IBTL :-D