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Worst arm in baseball???

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CJ

Postby Z-Dog » Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:25 pm

Charles Johnson used to have a decent arm, but he has lost it.

So far this year, he has given up 12 steals in 13 attempts, in his 11 starts.

The numbers would be worse, except many teams don't place too high of an emphasis on steals at Coors, playing for the big inning rather than trying to manufacture runs. (except the Dodgers, who give Roberts the green light every time he is on base)

The good news is, he is hitting like the CJ of old, and steals against don't count in fantasy!
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Postby Amazinz » Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:49 pm

Since Piazza is considered the worst athlete in baseball potentially and Ivan is considered the elite defensive catcher of our age I thought you may find these career numbers interesting:

................................................Piazza.......Rodriguez
Errors...................................... 109............ 100
Fielding%................................ .989........... .990
Weighted Fielding%................ .990........... .991
Range Factor........................... 7.29........... 6.57
Weighted Range Factor........... 6.65........... 6.14
Zone Rating............................. .977........... .956
Maine has a good swing for a pitcher but on anything that moves, he has no chance. And if it's a fastball, it has to be up in the zone. Basically, the pitcher has to hit his bat. - Mike Pelfrey
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Postby matmat » Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:57 pm

chipper wrote:Barry Bonds has a weak arm.


if we really are on the subject of OF... Johnny Damon throws like a girl and he has the hair to match.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:01 pm

Amazinz wrote:Since Piazza is considered the worst athlete in baseball potentially and Ivan is considered the elite defensive catcher of our age I thought you may find these career numbers interesting:

................................................Piazza.......Rodriguez
Errors...................................... 109............ 100
Fielding%................................ .989........... .990
Weighted Fielding%................ .990........... .991
Range Factor........................... 7.29........... 6.57
Weighted Range Factor........... 6.65........... 6.14
Zone Rating............................. .977........... .956


Cmon Amazinz, what do these catagories have to do with Catchers?
Zone rating and range factors for catchers - nice. Keep diggin guy.
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Postby Amazinz » Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:15 pm

Fielding percentage doesn't count either? OK fair enough Cornbread, for sake of argument let's agree that all of the statistics I posted are nonsense. How do you base your judgements on the defensive capabilities of catchers?
Maine has a good swing for a pitcher but on anything that moves, he has no chance. And if it's a fastball, it has to be up in the zone. Basically, the pitcher has to hit his bat. - Mike Pelfrey
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Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:25 pm

Amazinz wrote:Fielding percentage doesn't count either? OK fair enough Cornbread, for sake of argument let's agree that all of the statistics I posted are nonsense. How do you base your judgements on the defensive capabilities of catchers?


Don't take it so personally.

All that he said is that range factor is not much of a factor for catchers. I have to agree, range is not much of a factor unless you are catching Rick Ankiel.

He also said that zone rating is not that important. I frankly do not know what zone rating is but it is probably a stretch to bring zone rating in to defend Piazza as a defensive catcher.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:45 pm

well - Ive noticed Cs have their own set of statistics to measure their defensive capabilities. However - they cn be a little tricky to track down.
I started looking for a good set, and came across some, but while looking I also ran across a very interesting article written on ESPN comparing Piazza and Pudge and the overall impact of not just CS% but base stealing in general. Im not sure I agree with everything that was written, but it is well worth the time to take a look at it. Check it out:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/bp/1202793.html


Here are some more relavant C stats that would be useful when comparing Cs defensive capabilities including a couple from the set above:

Errors
Fielding %
Catchers ERA (CERA)
SB Attempts against (measures how much respect a C gets)
CS
CS%
Passed Balls (PB)
PCS - pitchers caught stealing - if a P picks off the baserunner, it shouldnt go towards th Cs CS%.

Are there any I missed? help me out if I did.
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Postby Amazinz » Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:46 pm

I am not taking it personally. :-D I get slightly emotional about it because I love the argument.

I think that most fans who are into stats will agree that fielding percentage is antiquated. It's not a particularly good estimate of a players defensive capabilities. Now I am not suggesting that Zone Rating, UZR or Range Factor are the end-all of defensive statistics. They are not but unfortunately these are all we have for the most part not including fan/media objectivity which is worthless IMHO.

So what can you do? You can take all three statistics and look at them at the same time and it does begin to give you a picture of a player's defensive ability. It's not perfect but it's much better than someone like Cornbread (not to pick on you) who can say Piazza is bad defensively and not back it up with ANY data.

We have no way to statistically judge a Catcher's ability to call a game so that will forever remain objective. We can judge a Catcher's ability to throw runners out and we know that Piazza is horrible, this is the main flaw in his game.

So what's left for a Catcher? You have catchable foul balls, double plays that a catcher may be involved in, ability to hold onto the ball during plays at the plate, wild pitches/passed balls, and fielding bunts and soft hits. F%, ZR, UZR, and RF do a good job of judging these events. Now you may not be able to compare these stats to an infielder for instance but when you compare them to another Catcher they are good judge of defensive performance.
Maine has a good swing for a pitcher but on anything that moves, he has no chance. And if it's a fastball, it has to be up in the zone. Basically, the pitcher has to hit his bat. - Mike Pelfrey
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:54 pm

Amazinz wrote:So what can you do? You can take all three statistics and look at them at the same time and it does begin to give you a picture of a player's defensive ability. It's not perfect but it's much better than someone like Cornbread (not to pick on you) who can say Piazza is bad defensively and not back it up with ANY data.


Ill let the stats from the article I linked on my last message speak for me.

Dont think I dont use stats to form my opinions, Amazinz. I just dont like to talk hard numbers much. It gets me in trouble sometimes ( I admit -so far I have been pretty wrong about Dtrain) - but just because I dont recite stats doesnt mean you should assume that my ideas are off the wall. They actually are based on stats. For instance - in our Piazza discussions, I didnt recite Piazza's lifetime CS%, but the point I was making was completely valid - his CS% is one of the worst in the majors. I didnt post any numbers, but I was very accurate in my conclusion.
Last edited by Cornbread Maxwell on Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Amazinz » Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:55 pm

One more thing just to make it clear: I am not trying to prove Mike Piazza is a better Catcher than Ivan and I don't believe that statistics prove that. What I am trying to prove is that sometimes the media and fans build a reputation for a player that is unfair. Cornbread nailed it on the head when he mentioned CS%. No matter what Piazza does defensively it will be overshadowed by his inability to throw runners out.

Great article BTW Cornbread! I am familiar with Catcher's ERA but IMHO there are serious flaws in that statistic. Not sure of your stance on it but that's an argument for another time.
Maine has a good swing for a pitcher but on anything that moves, he has no chance. And if it's a fastball, it has to be up in the zone. Basically, the pitcher has to hit his bat. - Mike Pelfrey
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