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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:41 pm
by dannahann
LCBOY wrote:Pujols is an awesome hitter. His start to his careerr is similar to Frank Thomas.

1990: .330/.454/.529 (60 games)
1991: .318/.553/.553
1992: .323/.439/.536
1993: .317/.426/.607
1994: .353/.487/.729


There are some differences tho. Thomas was 23 when his career began, Pujols was 21. Given Frank's first season was only 60 games. Still, Thomas hit 104 HR in those 4 seasons, Pujols hit 170 HR his first 4 years. Thomas drove in 387 runs while Pujols drove in 504 and did so with tremendous consistancy. (Highest RBI was 130, lowest was 123)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:10 pm
by LCBOY
dannahann wrote:
LCBOY wrote:Pujols is an awesome hitter. His start to his careerr is similar to Frank Thomas.

1990: .330/.454/.529 (60 games)
1991: .318/.553/.553
1992: .323/.439/.536
1993: .317/.426/.607
1994: .353/.487/.729


There are some differences tho. Thomas was 23 when his career began, Pujols was 21. Given Frank's first season was only 60 games. Still, Thomas hit 104 HR in those 4 seasons, Pujols hit 170 HR his first 4 years. Thomas drove in 387 runs while Pujols drove in 504 and did so with tremendous consistancy. (Highest RBI was 130, lowest was 123)


However, Thomas began his career BEFORE the offensive explosion of the mid-1990s. That is a key difference. Frank was 22 not 23 when his career began. The White Sox were lame in 1990, Thomas should have made the club out of spring training. There's no reason to doubt he could have kept his 1990 numbers for an entire season given what he did in 1991 and 1992. A better way to compare them is look at Win Shares or some other stat that take into account the league norms. I'll go check it out...

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:47 pm
by AKhomebrewer
Baseballer02 wrote:I think you're missing the fact that Beltran wasn't a .300 hitter this year, and Pujols is younger as well.


Well, he's younger in the U.S., at least :-?.

Since I'm unlikely to be building a genuine franchise any time soon, my top fantasy franchise choices next spring would be

1. Pujols
2. Vlad
3. Beltran

With his ss eligiblity gone ARod falls slightly.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:56 pm
by Pogotheostrich
LCBOY wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:Beltran - 27, Career OBP .353, SLG .490

Pujols - 24, Career OBP .413, SLG .624

Don't get me wrong Beltran is a great player. His SB make up for some of the difference in SLG and he plays great defense. Pujols is younger, a better hitter and has done it while playing 3B, LF and 1B. Plus he has really turned into a great defense 1B this last year. There is no one else that I would want if I am starting a team from scratch.


Pujols a "great defensive 1B"? He's not exactly J.T Snow or Keith Hernandez with the glove. However, Pujols (and close behind Manny) is the best hitter not named Barry Bonds. I guess the question is does Beltran's edge in speed and defense close the gap between their offense?
Well in Pujols first year as a full-time 1B he ranked 1st in RF and ZR for 1B. While RF isn't a great indicator for a 1B it still has some value. And as for the Beltran's advantage in speed and defense, it doesn't come close to closing the gap in offense.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:25 pm
by LCBOY
Pogotheostrich wrote:
LCBOY wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:Beltran - 27, Career OBP .353, SLG .490

Pujols - 24, Career OBP .413, SLG .624

Don't get me wrong Beltran is a great player. His SB make up for some of the difference in SLG and he plays great defense. Pujols is younger, a better hitter and has done it while playing 3B, LF and 1B. Plus he has really turned into a great defense 1B this last year. There is no one else that I would want if I am starting a team from scratch.


Pujols a "great defensive 1B"? He's not exactly J.T Snow or Keith Hernandez with the glove. However, Pujols (and close behind Manny) is the best hitter not named Barry Bonds. I guess the question is does Beltran's edge in speed and defense close the gap between their offense?
Well in Pujols first year as a full-time 1B he ranked 1st in RF and ZR for 1B. While RF isn't a great indicator for a 1B it still has some value. And as for the Beltran's advantage in speed and defense, it doesn't come close to closing the gap in offense.


I agree. If I had the first pick in next year's fantasy draft, I would pick Pujols.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:47 pm
by LBJackal
Yep, it'd be Pujols I'd want. Beltran is great for fantasy, and in real life too, just not as great though because speed doesn't help as much. Definately Pujols.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:58 pm
by raiders_umpire
i would definitely take pujols first as well if i was building a franchise from the start next year......but also did u know that pujols was ranked the #1 first baseman in zone rating for his defense this year..........

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:39 pm
by dannahann
LCBOY wrote:
dannahann wrote:
LCBOY wrote:Pujols is an awesome hitter. His start to his careerr is similar to Frank Thomas.

1990: .330/.454/.529 (60 games)
1991: .318/.553/.553
1992: .323/.439/.536
1993: .317/.426/.607
1994: .353/.487/.729


There are some differences tho. Thomas was 23 when his career began, Pujols was 21. Given Frank's first season was only 60 games. Still, Thomas hit 104 HR in those 4 seasons, Pujols hit 170 HR his first 4 years. Thomas drove in 387 runs while Pujols drove in 504 and did so with tremendous consistancy. (Highest RBI was 130, lowest was 123)


However, Thomas began his career BEFORE the offensive explosion of the mid-1990s. That is a key difference. Frank was 22 not 23 when his career began. The White Sox were lame in 1990, Thomas should have made the club out of spring training. There's no reason to doubt he could have kept his 1990 numbers for an entire season given what he did in 1991 and 1992. A better way to compare them is look at Win Shares or some other stat that take into account the league norms. I'll go check it out...


Good point about Thomas coming up B4 the offenses went SO crazy. I wasn't aware Thomas came B4 his birthday in MAY? If so he was indeed 22, not 23 as I may have wrongly assumed?? If he did come up that early in his rookie year I don't really remember him playing all that much B4 the break. Again, I apopolgize if I was wrong.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:52 pm
by LCBOY
dannahann wrote:Good point about Thomas coming up B4 the offenses went SO crazy. I wasn't aware Thomas came B4 his birthday in MAY? If so he was indeed 22, not 23 as I may have wrongly assumed?? If he did come up that early in his rookie year I don't really remember him playing all that much B4 the break. Again, I apopolgize if I was wrong.


Thomas' birthdate is 5/27/68. He debuted on 8/2/90 making him 22 years 66 days days old. ;-D

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:13 pm
by SaintsOfTheDiamond
LCBOY wrote:I guess the question is does Beltran's edge in speed and defense close the gap between their offense?


That's what gets it for me, but then again I'm more of a small ball, stolen bases kind of fan and you have to be able to play defense at a very high level IMO to be considered one of the great players. I'm probably just being wowed by his performance in the playoffs, but I still think it's a lot closer than most people let on. The age difference really isn't that big a deal IMO, what three years? And that's if Pujols really is just 24 (but I guess have no facts to actually make me question that or want to as a Cards fan :-D ). For me it's really a toss up for who I would take, but I guess that still puts me in the minority. :-° Don't get me wrong, I still think Pujols is the greatest hitter outside Barry Bonds, I would just want a more rounded player (steals, good fielder, good hitter). The only reason I wouldn't take Beltran is that one of his greatest attributes IMO -- speed -- declines with age, but then again his power will probably increase some to make up for it. I guess I'm just arguing with myself here more than anything and need to reprioritize what makes a player great in this era of offense, offense, offense. :-?